Talk:Atkins diet

Unbalanced with reference to protein intake

"it is unbalanced as it promotes unlimited consumption of protein and saturated fat, and it may increase the risk of heart disease."

This sentence seems rather strange to me, a balance diet is composed of a variety of food types, not based on macronutrients, whilst the saturated fat intake is obviously problematic there is no good evidence of harm from high protein diet in isolation. Eating high amounts of protein does not indicate an unhealthy diet. Adhiyana (talk) 10:07, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

What we have seems well-sourced. Bon courage (talk) 10:20, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

@Bon courage this doesn't really resolve my issue, simply searching "high protein diet" on pubmed returns plenty of sources showing it has either no or positive effect on health, moreover the only source that isn't a book chapter makes no mention of unlimited protein Adhiyana (talk) 10:33, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

If good sources on Atkins say it has unbalanced macronutrients, Wikipedia will mirror them. That's what an encyclopedia does. Bon courage (talk) 11:58, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

We have an article on High-protein diet, it looks to me like there is no high-quality evidence for benefits of this type of eating, but some risks of harm. Psychologist Guy (talk) 12:12, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

@Psychologist Guy the evidence of risks of harm are:

a) a disputed review article which extends risk of harm in patients with established renal disease to the general population, high protein plant based diets have been shown to be renoprotective which the author's acknowledge

b) diets like Atkins which couple high protein intake to high saturated fat intake which is a confounding factor

But, leaving this aside, as I mentioned earlier the statement that the diet is unbalanced because it doesn't set an upper limit on protein intake is not necessarily true. Adhiyana (talk) 12:22, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

@Bon courage the statement doesn't say unbalanced macronutrients it says unbalanced, a balanced diet is a diet composed of a variety of food groups, there are balanced diets which do not have upper limits on protein intake. A diet which is composed of equal amounts of the three macronutrients is not in line with commonly accepted dietary requirements.

I'm not disputing that Atkins is unbalanced with reference to including a variety of foods but this statement implies diets without upper protein limits are unbalanced which is not necessarily the case. Adhiyana (talk) 12:16, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

High protein diets (unlimited protein), or high-saturated fat (unlimited saturated fat) diets are clearly not balanced. I am not sure why you are claiming they are. If you eat an balanced omnivore diet but then decide to add an unlimited amount of high- protein to it everyday, i.e. red meat steaks this is not going to make a balanced diet, it puts that person's protein intake well above the average range. It's impossible to have a high-protein or high-saturated fat intake in a balanced diet that's why limits are advised. If you look up what amount of protein is too much, there are various recommendations from medical agencies and organizations explaining this. None recommend a "high"-protein diet in "unlimited" protein. You are arguing against mainstream consensus. BTW the idea to eat a high-protein diet is dangerous, it can lead to protein poisoning. Psychologist Guy (talk) 12:34, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

@Psychologist Guy this is a strawman argument for a few reasons:

1) not setting an upper limit on protein doesn't mean eating infinite protein, it means not defining a limit on the protein intake

2) eating large amounts of steak is unhealthy for reasons other than protein content, one of the most important being high saturated fat content

3) protein poisoning occurs at protein intakes in excess of 250grams of protein per day which is in extremis

Also, returning to my other point a balance in macronutrients is not the same as a balanced diet, the standard RDA for protein is around 70g per day, if one were to eat a balanced macronutrient diet on this basis it would imply eating 70g of carbohydrates and 70g of fat as well, this does not meet the caloric requirements of the average human.

A balanced diet involves eating a balance of different food groups, many high protein foods contain a variety of other nutrients, including carbohydrates, fats and micronutrients, this is the case with peas, legumes, most nuts etc

Atkins is not unbalanced because it doesn't set an upper limit on protein it's unbalanced because it discourages eating many food groups. Adhiyana (talk) 12:49, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

@Psychologist Guy additionally I would recommend reading through the protein poisoning article because it chiefly discussed a historical ailment observed in Roman times, there is no widely accepted upper limit for protein intake Adhiyana (talk) 13:00, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

We have reliable sources saying that Atkins diet is unlimited in saturated fat and protein, you have not provided any reliable sources to the contrary. On the traditional Atkins diet people are not eating peas, legumes, or nuts. It's a stupid diet (I think you agree) and your other comments are off-topic. We don't really need to go into anymore detail. Your POV here to have a scientific debate about protein intake is not on topic or relevant to the Atkins diet. We just go by what the sources say. I have told you a diet (in this case the Atkins diet) unlimited in protein and saturate fat is not balanced. No medical organization supports the Atkins diet. In your first comment you have given the game away "no good evidence of harm from high protein diet in isolation", it seems you have some fringe views and you want to promote a high-protein diet. This is not the place to do it. Psychologist Guy (talk) 13:17, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

@Psychologist Guy it is on topic because the statement that the Atkins diet is unbalanced because of unlimited protein is incorrect Adhiyana (talk) 13:24, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

I do not wish to promote a high protein diet here, but I disagree with the linking of the harm of Atkins to protein when it is clearly a diet which is high in many other things correlated with harm such as saturated fat, excessive animal protein, and excessive calories Adhiyana (talk) 13:28, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

You appear well educated, but it is not up to you or me or any other editor to challenge what is in reliable sources or say if they are incorrect. We just cite them. In this case the source/s are reliable, The Gale Encyclopedia of Diets: A Guide to Health and Nutrition and Body Weight and Its Management, these are mainstream textbooks. If you have such an issue with just that one line then I guess you could take this to another board like the dispute noticeboard. I have checked the content though and it is reliable. If you search on Google books for Atkins diet and "unlimited" fat and protein many references exist pointing out the diet advocates unlimited consumption of protein and fats but severely limited consumption of carbohydrates, the sources then criticize this as dangerous, unbalanced and unsafe. At least 6+ sources clarify this that could be added to the article. I am not seeing any references that say what you are claiming. Psychologist Guy (talk) 13:59, 11 December 2022 (UTC)