Talk:Trisodium phosphate

TSP in Breakfast Cereals

Does anyone know why this stuff (Trisodium Phosphate) is in many cereals? (Lucky Charms to start) What is it's purpose and is it harming us? (Since main page says it corrodes metal.. I'm nervous as what it is doing to my body..) Would like anyone to add some more info about it's place in our foods. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.243.4.230 (talk) 15:31, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is also in Pocky sticks... Kosburrat (talk) 02:14, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know why it is in cereals, but I added mention of this in the "Uses" section with links to pages for those cereals that contain TSP. --Bill.albing (talk) 20:32, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Trisodium phosphate adds, well, phosphates, which are essential nutrients. Many sources say aids the addition of calcium, (1, 2). That it corrodes metal is of little importance on its own--table salt will corrode metal as well. Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) is used as a cleaning agent and a pesticide. Vinegar is also a very popular cleaning agent.

Not to mention that the hydrochloric acid in your stomach will dissolve iron nails quite handily. Norm Reitzel (talk) 15:22, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Other

This article is about the same chemical as Sodium phosphate; I don't know which should be the primary article and which should be a redirect. It seems like the two names are used in different fields. Anyone who knows may wish to merge the two. -- Creidieki 19:26, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I merged that article into this one, because this one was longer and had more links pointing to it. If anybody disagrees, they can move the article across to sodium phosphate, but it would be polite to fix all the links as well. --Spudtater 7 July 2005 22:53 (UTC)

Anyone who wants to give monosodium phosphate its own page, feel free. For now it's freeloading here. --Spudtater 7 July 2005 23:12 (UTC)

Sodium dihydrogen phosphate would be a better title (with a redirect from monosodium phosphate, of course). Physchim62 19:46, 16 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

My opinion is that we should have one page that covers all three compounds: monobasic, dibasic, and tribasic, as well as variations like sodium metaphosphate. Karlhahn 21:11, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"GO SILVERBACKS!" - something tells me this has nothing to do with sodium phosphate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.228.187.115 (talk) 13:18, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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oops?

By the end of the 20th century, many products that formerly contained TSP are now manufactured with TSP'

doesn't make sense, I think it's intended to say "without TSP" but I'm not sure enough to want to edit it to that effect.

Alkhowarizmi (talk) 15:56, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

TSP in dishwashing detergent or laundry detergent

Up until the 2010 ban on phosphates in the U.S. for consumer dishwashing detergent, I don't think TSP was even an ingredient. Anyone editing the article to say TSP was in automatic dishwasher detergent, I want to see good references. I am not too sure about laundry detergents, but since they have been free of phosphates for a long time now, I don't know if it would be easy to find an historical source about them. Maybe they had TSP in them... I think they might have, or at least some of them might have.

As for dishwashing detergent, I believe the phosphates responsible for the water softening were things like STTP, which is Sodium tripolyphosphate. I changed the article to note the fact that these compounds are easy to get confused.

There was a long NY Times article on dishwashing, but since it never mentioned TSP, I removed the source, mainly because this source made no mention of any specific compounds responsible for either the softening or algae growth effects. I think people falsely attribute TSP to the phosphate chemicals formerly used to soften dishwashing water. I like to saw logs! (talk) 04:07, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

substitutes aren't as effective?

I followed the "^ Hotton, Peter (26 August 2010). "Handyman on Call". The Boston Globe." link and it makes no reference to any other materials relative to TSP at all, you can hardly call it a reference supporting the statement that substitute cleaning agents aren't as effective.

I'm sure there is literature out there that has information on this. Surely sodium carbonate and sodium silicates are the most comparable in terms of applications. In my opinion silicates are better cleaners anyway, you just have to look out for corrosion issues. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.138.11.111 (talk) 09:48, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

the "Food Additive" section says "emulsifier", but the E number listed is for "antioxidant"

On Jun 24, 2014, the article includes:

Food additive[edit] Sodium phosphates (monosodium phosphate, disodium phosphate, and trisodium phosphate) are approved as a food additive in the EU; used as emulsifying agents, E339.[12]

If you click the E339 link, however, the table has:

E339 Sodium phosphates (i) Monosodium phosphate (ii) Disodium phosphate (iii) Trisodium phosphate antioxidant Approved in the EU.[17]

where the "antioxidant" value is in a column headed "Purpose". So instead of saying "used as emulsifying agents", IMHO it seems like it ought to be "used as antioxidant".

Jfehribach (talk) 21:23, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There have been no talk page comments for over a week, so I changed the article: Change "emulsifier" to "antioxidant" in ===Food additive=== section

Jfehribach (talk) 01:40, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You are referencing anther Wikipedia page that is in error. If you actually go to the primary source here: http://www.food.gov.uk/science/additives/enumberlist#anchor_7 you can verify that it is not in the antioxidant section. --67.168.8.24 (talk) 19:44, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

GHS Classification

The article classifies trisodium phosphate as H318, yet the ECHA website which gives the currently accepted classification for thousands of chemicals gives the material a classification of H319.

Here it is:

http://apps.echa.europa.eu/registered/data/dossiers/DISS-9ead4380-d8c1-340c-e044-00144f67d031/AGGR-3d0b0fea-d8c6-47e8-a65a-5d406495428e_DISS-9ead4380-d8c1-340c-e044-00144f67d031.html#L-610e3d7e-5910-45b3-ae6d-26ea59aa1291

Note - may have to resubmit EC/CAS Number on the previous page or you may get a form-resubmit type error — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.249.75.66 (talk) 08:57, 30 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Trisodium phosphate/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

This page states that Trisodium phosphate is present in cheerios. This is however not true, as in cheerios honey, tripotassium phosphate is actually used. This is completely different to trisodium phosphate and is used as a food additive and as an emulsifier and whipping agent.

Last edited at 14:37, 1 November 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 09:16, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Na3PO4·12 H2O as Sodium Phosphate Tribasic Hydrate

I've seen the formula Na3PO4·12 H2O referred to as sodium phosphate tribasic 12-hydrate (for example, by chemical.net https://www.chemical.net/sodium-phosphate-tribasic-12-hydrate-crystal-3). What exactly does the tribasic in this name mean? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Secretkeeper12 (talk • contribs) 04:26, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tribasic refers to the number of basic molecules (NaOH) that reacted with each molecule of H3PO4 to form the product. Orthophosphoric acid is a triprotic acid, and therefore there are three positions where it can react with a molecule of a base. 71.248.161.176 (talk) 03:37, 31 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why does the page say TSP is NOT toxic?

"While TSP is not toxic per se,"

The MSDS ^[1] also ^[2] say the following:

Ingestion

ACUTE HAZARDS / SYMPTOMS Cough. Sore throat. Abdominal pain. Burning sensation. Shock or collapse.

PREVENTION Do not eat, drink, or smoke during work. Wash hands before eating.

FIRST AID / FIRE-FIGHTING Rinse mouth. Do NOT induce vomiting. Give one or two glasses of water to drink. Rest. Refer immediately for medical attention.

Anytime I see something that says "Do NOT induce vomiting" or "Refer immediately for medical attention" puts up red flags for me.

If it isn't toxic, why the need for immediate medical attention?

2602:306:CE4E:2DC0:941B:E045:74AD:B08D (talk) 07:19, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

Perhaps you should stop reading MSDS sheets if you cannot interpret them reasonably. Most substances in their pure form will be harmful. Please keep in mind that it is generally the amount that does harm not the substance in itself. ~~Mike~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.133.209.117 (talk • contribs) November 11, 2020 (UTC)

TSP can be seriously toxic. Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai

See: Trisodium phosphate poisoning information. Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai

I removed this completely unsourced material from the Wikipedia article: "While TSP is not toxic per se, it is severely irritating to gastric mucosa unless used as part of a buffered solution."

From the linked article above:

 ESOPHAGUS, STOMACH AND INTESTINES

    Blood in the stool
    Burns of the esophagus (food pipe) and stomach
    Diarrhea
    Severe abdominal pain
    Vomiting, possibly bloody

And:

Severe damage to the mouth, throat, eyes, lungs, esophagus, nose, and stomach are possible. The long-term outcome depends on the extent of this damage. Damage to the esophagus and stomach continues to occur for several weeks after the poison was swallowed. Death may occur as long as a month later.

As far as what is safe in food there is this:

It was decided, therefore, to assign a ‘maximum tolerable daily intake’ (MTDI) rather than an ADI. The MTDI allocated was 70 mg/kg bw [body weight] per day (expressed as phosphorus) for the sum of phosphates and polyphosphates, both naturally present in food and ingested as food additives.

From here: Re‐evaluation of phosphoric acid–phosphates – di‐, tri‐ and polyphosphates (E 338–341, E 343, E 450–452) as food additives and the safety of proposed extension of use. Published online 2019 Jun 12. doi: 10.2903/j.efsa.2019.5674 - EFSA Journal. See: European Food Safety Authority.

This is a good article with many quality references:

"Is Trisodium Phosphate in Food Bad for You? Facts vs. Myths." Link is:
healthline dot com/nutrition/trisodium-phosphate

Medically reviewed by Amy Richter, RD, Nutrition — Written by Jillian Kubala, MS, RD — Updated on June 13, 2023. According to the article consuming too many phosphates can cause many health problems. It is the references that count. Wikipedia does not usually use summary articles like this as a reference. --Timeshifter (talk) 10:51, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttp://www.ilo.org/dyn/icsc/showcard.display?p_lang=en&p_card_id=1178

[2] ttp://ecswestern.org/filebrowser/download/2615

[1]

[2]