Talk:Croatian Democratic Union

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Accurate translation

The party's actual name in Croatian is Hrvatska demokratska zajednica. The translation of "zajednica" - is absolutely not "Union". Its "Community". The party's name accurately translated is, quite unambiguously: "Croatian Democratic Community". I'm not proposing we rename the article or anything, but I think it might be warranted to mention this fact? -- Director (talk) 01:14, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Should be fixed now... 213.149.51.222 (talk) 14:43, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What's the problem, Tzowu?

Do you mind telling what is specifically the problem causing you to remove the whole range of well supported edits? Maybe try to think of an improvement instead of removing everything? 213.149.51.222 (talk) 14:47, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What's the problem? Your edits are clear examples of WP:CHERRYPICKING and WP:FRINGE, and a clear violation of WP:NPOV. There was nothing "fascist" in HDZ ever nor are they now a nationalist party. Actually, we could even consider removing the "right-wing" part from the political position as they are much closer to centre with Plenković in charge. And really, "war crimes"? Tzowu (talk) 15:08, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think you simply reverted as soon as you saw fascism mentioned, without actually taking care to examine the edits. Everything is well sourced, published science and well regarded journals (not just index.hr!) are cited in support of everything. And the edits in question concern the nineties, not the present HDZ.

As far as the War Crimes section is concerned, I think you might find the revision from a few minutes ago a little more agreeable? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.149.51.168 (talk) 23:48, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also, you have reverted large groups of edits, without bothering to provide more detailed reasons than "cherry-picking" and "bias" (you passed over saying what specifically might be biased). 213.149.51.168 (talk) 23:52, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'll start from the war crimes section. None of the people listed there were members of the Croatian Democratic Union, let alone leaders of the party. And they were hardly "appointed" by the party, whatever that means. Not even Mirko Norac (though not listed, but Operation Medak Pocket was mentioned), who was also not a member of HDZ. You know which war criminal was a member of a party from Croatia (Croatia, keep that in mind)? Goran Hadžić, he was on SDP's list for the 1990 elections in Vukovar. Would it make sense to add that information on SDP's article? I think not. So there is no reason to have that section on this article or any other article of a political party, unless that political party was convicted for war crimes.Tzowu (talk) 16:57, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As for the rest, I added Tanner as a source both for HDZ's roots as beeing a nationalist party and having members of the former Communist Party. Books that were listed didn't have a page number, while of the news articles, I think that only one says that it was an "ultranationalist" party. Tanner is also a source contradicting the "fascism" claims ("The influx of refugees and the trauma resulting from the loss of territory did not lead to the rise of Fascism or a hunger for authoritarian rule, as many domestic and foreign observers had predicted", p. 284). Tzowu (talk) 18:47, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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Centrism

Let's not edit war over whether to include centrism in the infobox; let's discuss this instead. I don't believe that centrism should be included in the infobox because it is only a faction of the party. Yes, the party is centrist under Andrej Plenković, but this can be seen as a purely temporary shift that any major center-right party will have. See all of the edits by KungFuBlackjack here and note the clear consensus to remove these temporary shifts. I will remove centrism until a consensus here is developed. Ezhao02 (talk) 14:22, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

-

Do not change sourced data. Centrist path has been chosen with the election of Plenković in march over a centre-right fraction led by Brkić and Stier.
DK (talk) 13:44, 22 July 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.250.165.194 (talk) [reply]

Have you read my explanation? I do not dispute that Plenković as leader has led the HDZ onto a more centrist path. However, I highly doubt that this change will be permanent; I believe that the HDZ will remain the major center-right party in Croatia for some more time. If you look at this edit and the following edits on the PASOK page, you can see that Wikipedia avoids showing these small shifts in ideology from leader to leader. Additionally, if you look at the sources you've added, they all describe Plenković or other HDZ members, not the HDZ itself, as centrist. This means that "centrism" would fit better under a "factions" header, although I do not believe this is necessary either. Ezhao02 (talk) 13:52, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I totally agree with Ezhao02. HDZ should only be described as simple 'Centre-right'. The German CDU does not define a political position as 'Centre to centre-right' just because the party is led by centrists.--삭은사과 (talk) 14:05, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox: historical political position and ideology

I think there should be a separate header for historical political position and ideology for the period 1990-2000 in the infobox. HDZ was much more to the right than it is now Nonamme3 (talk) 18:29, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I totally agree and disagree with the revert of the historical positions. It is a fact that HDZ used to have different factions, right-wing to far-right, but such factions seem to not exist anymore. Under Plenković, the party completely transitioned to pro-europeanism and Croatian nationalism, which used to be one of the main ideologies, became irrelevant IMHO. --Koreanovsky (talk) 22:38, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I totally agree. Looking through edit history, it seems like the nationalist, irredentist and lowkey authoritarian elements of the party and Tuđmanism in the 90s were better represented before. It also seems from the article that the party is much more uniform than it is based on ideology, so a combination of "historical" and "factions" ideology should definitely be added to the infobox. CroatiaElects (talk) 11:02, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Corruption and controverses

Why don't we add a section for corruption and controverses? There is a lot of materials for that, even for a stand alone page. Borist1337 (talk) 12:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Add a section about corruption

There really should be a section about corruption. The HDZ has been involved in numerous affairs over the years and it's overall perception in Croatian society is that of a corrupt party. Vv93spst (talk) 10:38, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Some time ago my plan was to make separated article about all corruption affairs through all the governments but I cancel it after realizing how much time would I spend on that. Maybe in some other form like just the major affairs or only affairs of ministers in government ignoring local branches of the party. Opatijac97 (talk) 00:12, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely, a Controversies section with major minister affairs, the corruption verdict for the party in Fimi media and possibly the 90s privatization controversies? and yeah also mention the overall perception in society, maybe also how radicalised the public discourse is around HDZ (slogans like "ili hdz ili Hrvatska" and calls to ban the party). CroatiaElects (talk) 11:13, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]