Talk:Albany, New York

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Frequently asked questions

Is Albany really "one of the oldest surviving settlements from the original Thirteen Colonies and the oldest continuously chartered city in the United States"?

Yes. While not the oldest surviving, continuously settled, settlement of the original Thirteen Colonies, the French fort of 1540 (see History section) is the oldest European settlement that was then resettled and is currently inhabited; the phrase "one of the oldest surviving settlements" is used so as to avoid confusion (claiming "oldest" strictly leads some to believe the article is making claims it is not). Albany is also the oldest continuously chartered city, based on the fact that it is definitionally a city (not just a settlement referred to as a city); New York City is the oldest chartered city, however it forfeited its original Dongan Charter in Leisler's Rebellion (1689). While New York City did in fact reestablish itself under its original charter, for two years the charter was not in effect, making Albany's charter the longest-lasting, continuously active charter (see History and Government sections). Furthermore, New York City consolidated in 1898 and adopted a new charter, which was further revised in 1938.

Nobody really knows what the "oldest" settlement in America is. Are you counting places where Native Americans lived? That's in the American Southwest. Are you saying it had to be "continuously settled"? Well define that, and find proof that at least one person lived there since the given date of settlement. It just can't be done. So we'll live with the "one of the oldest surviving settlements from the original Thirteen Colonies" claims, because, hey, it works.

The description of Mayor Corning's (a Democrat) term seems partisan and biased, especially with what seem to be kudos going to Governor Rockefeller (a Republican) for his effort in development during the same time. Should this be rewritten?

No. While the two may be of different parties politically, there is no refuting the fact that Corning's tenure was known for its efforts in sustaining the status quo. Rockefeller, however, was known for his want to always develop. These are well-known and agreed-upon facts, as are the outcomes due to these policies that have become clear in the recent decades. Note also that major portions of the history section of this article were based on a book by Paul Grondahl (political affiliation unknown), which is generally fair but somewhat critical of Corning; other portions are based on a book by John McEneny (D)—a self-proclaimed Corning idolizer—which is also generally fair but somewhat supportive of Corning.

Facts are facts: Corning hated change and Rocky loved it. That's not to say this article praises or criticizes what Corning or Rocky did. Many are still unhappy that I-787 took over the waterfront (a Corning blunder) and many still ~~dislike~~ ~~hate~~ detest the architecture of the Empire State Plaza (a Rocky blunder in their eyes). But you don't see that commentary in the article.

I heard/saw a McDonald's commercial that claimed that Albany was originally known as Kayderosseras (KI-yuh-DARE-uh-STARE-us), but it also said Beverwijck (BEH-ver-vike) was acceptable. Which is more correct, if either?

Beverwijck was definitely the first name of the settlement that eventually became the city of Albany. The community settled around Fort Orange (later Fort Albany) and incorporated as a village in 1652. This map shows what the small community looked like at the time; the village was within the protective stockade.

Kayderosseras was a large land patent dating to the early 18th century essentially making up the land north of the Mohawk River and west and south of the Hudson River (yes, south: the Hudson turns west as one travels closer to its source). The land was not within the borders of present Albany County (though it was back then since Albany County made up most of upstate New York) and it was not within Albany's city limits. This idea is false. Locals may recognize the name due to the creek in Saratoga County. Others will notice the distinct resemblance to the vanilla ice cream-orange sherbet swirl, Kaydeross Kreme, sold at Stewart's Shops; the name is not a coincidence, coming from the Saratoga Springs-based company.

Don't trust a marketing campaign, at least not completely.

There's not much mentioned about literature and film. I remember a book/movie/poem/etc. that had to do with, was written/produced in, etc. Albany. Why isn't it here?

Admittedly, the main authors of this article aren't 100% versed in the literature and film of Albany. If you know of something relating to this subject, please start a new thread below with the proposed content addition and someone will respond. Your content should meet the following criteria:

It should be reasonably notable, even to someone that doesn't live in Albany.
It needs to have a reliable source, preferably something online to link to (please include the link with the content).
It can't be too long. Two to three sentences, maximum.

Looking forward to the suggestions!

We can add stuff, but it must be relevant, interesting, and sourced. And it can't be too long; this article is already long as it is.

Why isn't there a section on arts?

Good question. The main authors of this article admit they are not very familiar with the art community other than knowing that Art on Lark and the Albany Institute of History and Art exist. Before rewriting this article, there was a section in Culture called "Artistic community". We have no problem including it (in fact, we wish we could!), however we don't know where to find the sources necessary to verify the claims. The verbiage can be found here. If you have sources (preferably online ones), feel free to update the draft and leave a comment on this talk page mentioning the change. Not until the section is complete will it go live, however.

We aren't trying to disenfranchise anyone, we just don't have verifiable sources to back up the original claims. And... we don't really know what we're talking about when it comes to this subject.

Section sizes

Section size for Albany, New York (48 sections)
Section name	Byte count	Section total
(Top)	15,053	15,053
History	50	46,920
Mohican, Mohawk, and Dutch before 1660	5,289	5,289
British rule to 1800	5,360	5,360
Plan of Union	1,168	1,168
Revolutionary War and real estate	2,608	2,608
Early decades of American independence	1,750	1,750
1800 to 1942	18,602	18,602
1942 to present day	12,093	12,093
Geography	5,161	10,670
Climate	2,888	2,888
Cityscape	412	2,621
Neighborhoods	2,209	2,209
Demographics	17	29,749
City of immigrants	7,090	7,090
Religious participation	9,441	9,441
Modern overview	22	11,198
2020 census	11,176	11,176
Crime	2,003	2,003
Economy	2,151	5,432
Tech Valley	3,281	3,281
Arts and culture	70	33,171
Nightlife and entertainment	3,926	3,926
Festivals	5,536	5,536
Museums and historic sites	5,880	5,880
Literature and film	5,154	5,154
Architecture	12,605	12,605
Sports	12,737	12,737
Parks and recreation	7,053	7,053
Government	6,710	9,628
Politics	2,918	2,918
Education	10,340	10,340
Media	8,429	8,429
Infrastructure	19	9,683
Transportation	63	9,664
Highways	1,736	1,736
Trains	1,186	1,186
Airport	1,443	1,443
Bus	3,955	3,955
Boat	1,281	1,281
Sister cities	1,676	1,676
Notable people	81	81
See also	369	369
Notes	52	52
References	28	28
Bibliography	3,680	3,680
Further reading	2,833	2,833
External links	2,237	2,237
Total	209,821	209,821

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Albany, New York has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
May 25, 2007	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
September 6, 2010	Good article nominee	Listed
September 14, 2010	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
March 31, 2023	Good article reassessment	Kept
Current status: Good article

This article has been mentioned by a media organization:

Paul Grondahl (December 4, 2010). "City of Albany is this Wikipedian's beat". Times Union (Albany).

GA check

I am working my way through the Good articles listed at Places; having a quick look to see if they still meet the Good article criteria. I have landed on this article. After I've had a quick look, I'll leave a note here indicating if I have concerns or not.

In general, I see the process as this: 1) Give the article a quick look to see if there are obvious issues: maintenance tags, unsourced sections, excessive media, etc, resolving any minor issues as I do so; 2) If I have concerns, open a GAR to see how serious those concerns are, resolving them myself if they are not serious; 3) If during the GAR I feel that there is significant work to be done (more than I can or am willing to do myself), I will put the GAR on hold and notify the main contributors.

My aim and intention is to keep the article listed - I would rather the article was improved and kept listed than the article is delisted. Where a delisting seems likely due to the amount or nature of work needed being greater than I am able or willing to do alone, and the main contributors are unavailable or unable for whatever reason to do the work, then appropriate WikiProjects will be notified at least seven days before a delisting would take place. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 21:32, 8 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is a very well researched and attractively presented article, with a professional level of prose. I don't have any serious concerns; however, points for consideration:

At 61 kB (10142 words) of "readable prose", the article is over the limit of the average concentration span so is demanding a lot of the reader, and has exceeded what is generally considered WP:TOOBIG for Wikipedia. Long articles can be off-putting for a number of readers; some people may not engage with the article due to its size, or find it tiresome to navigate for the information they want. Some serious consideration could be given to trimming this to a manageable size in order to encourage more readers to engage with it, and to make it more manageable and enjoyable for those readers who do engage with it. To balance that, there are times when an article's size is justified by the depth, range and complexity of the topic. However, to put it into context, Bulgaria is 44 kB (6953 words), China is 65 kB (10266 words), and Malaysia is 52 kB (8281 words).
The article is richly illustrated. However, thought could be given to how helpful many of these images are: there are three images crammed into the Transport section, giving us illustrations of the airport, a station, and the port, each of which has their own article, which a reader could visit if they want to know what the airport or station look like. WP:MOSIM advices that images should not sandwich text - something that happens in several places. Some reduction of images might be useful.
The WP:Lead would benefit form some attention. There are several short paragraphs, and the information may not be presented in the best order. MOS:INTRO advises that the opening paragraph should define the topic. When asked to describe the essential points of Albany, that it is one of the oldest surviving settlements from the original thirteen colonies is perhaps more important than that population was 97,856 in 2010.

Though I feel the above points somewhat distract from what is otherwise an excellent article, they are debatable editorial points, and are not serious enough to further question the listing. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 18:30, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Albany, NY Fire Department Suggestion

Can someone please help link to this orphaned article? Gbawden (talk) 07:18, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a link to Template:Albany, New York, which is at the bottom of the article. --Albany NY (talk) 18:46, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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Needs Updating

I don't have time right now to gather the references to update this article, but in case someone else can get to it, I'm noting that the information about the public and charter schools is out of date. Several more charter schools have been closed in the last few years and according to the school district enrollment is increasing in their schools is increasing because of these closures, as well as increases in the school age population. Perhaps it would be better to eliminate such facts rather than have data that needs frequent updating to stay accurate.samtha25 (talk) 19:19, 4 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, it is grossly out of date and the city school district's *increase* in enrollment is dramatic. Will hunt down some refs. DMorpheus2 (talk) 18:54, 12 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Done DMorpheus2 (talk) 18:46, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Montage

What's the reasoning for removing the montage? I don't think age really matters, the (blocked) editor is throwing out the baby with the bathwater on this. It's not as if the skyline has been drastically altered.

If the disruptive editor keeps this up I will escalate the situation to ANI or SPI. Buffaboy ^talk 23:18, 5 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 11 December 2015

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The article states that "Beverwijck" translates as "Beaver District" in English. That is not correct. It is a literal translation of the words "bever" and "wijck" (modern Dutch: wijk), but Beverwijck was named after its Dutch counterpart in the province of North Holland and that name has nothing to do with beavers. You may check this reading the history of the Dutch village of Beverwijk. 82.95.79.140 (talk) 07:35, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. sst✈^(discuss) 04:30, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Bias in intro section?

Much of the text in the introduction section sounds like it was written as a promotion for Albany. Such examples include "It marshalled the power of immigrants and their descendants in both cities", " Albany is known for its rich history, commerce, culture, architecture, and institutions of higher education", and "Albany has been a center of higher education for over a century", whatever that means. (Maybe define the meaning of "center"?) Also, there are several paragraphs of "Albany had the first x" between citations 11 & 12 that aren't cited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:6000:E488:5500:C132:6DBD:F85D:9AFA (talk) 05:32, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. It really should include the popular image of Albany as the USA's center of political corruption DMorpheus2 (talk) 15:34, 25 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fortune 500 headquarters

The second paragraph of this article is mostly incorrect. I am certain that most of the companies listed here (merrill lynch, american express, goldman sachs, general electric) are not headquartered in Albany. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.252.38.101 (talk) 13:42, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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External links modified

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Seal of Albany, New York.svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot (talk) 03:51, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious elevation

Currently the info box says

Lowest elevation (Sea level (at the Hudson River)) 0 ft (0 m)

I'm deleting this because its location on the Hudson River is not at sea level (if it were, the river would not flow to the sea). Hopefully someone can find a source with the correct info (and check if the figure for highest elevation is correct). Loraof (talk) 19:11, 23 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Loraof: Belatedly

Fixed

𝒬 𝔔 00:14, 3 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed 2 feet as its lowest elevation. The Poughkeepsie article states a zero elevation, so there seems to be a pattern of using the river as a zero datum. 68.196.165.94 (talk) 01:10, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GA Reassessment

Albany, New York

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: Tags resolved by yours truly. Article kept. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:27, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Article is a bit out of date, and can use a lick of paint meet the GA standards

Quite a few 2005-2010 stats (higher education)
- I'm starting to work on these, especially in the economy, education, and demographics section. Could take a little time though, so please bear with me. Matt Wade 21:31, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
one failed verification tag
- Looks like two things: 1) a typo where the page reference said 24 when it was supposed to say 124, but the link in the ref points to the right page. I updated the ref and confirmed the source. Source says ...the legislature was migratory for many years—Albany, Poughkeepsie, Kingston, and New York having about equal division of the honors. And 2) someone added Hurley, which isn't mentioned in the ref. I looked it up and it sounds like it acted as temporary capital of the colony in 1777 after the burning of Kingston led the legislature to flee, but the phrasing of the sentence is "statehood till 1797" (not arbitrarily, that's the point of the paragraph) and New York didn't become a state until 1788. Likely a proud Hurley or Ulster County resident added this tidbit to ensure the list is "complete", but it's not really meant to be complete over the history of the state and colony, just the state. So I removed Hurley. Can we remove the failed ver tag? Matt Wade 17:54, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not a GA issue, but a lot of WP:SANDWICHING
Undue emphasis on crime
Uncited: "There is a sizable Islamic community in Albany.."
- I updated that section with some more current news articles about the Muslim population. Matt Wade 21:31, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Femke (alt) (talk) 07:45, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A few comments:

The two panoramic skyline images should be stacked.
- I think I intended the historical one to be at the end of 1800 to 1942 section (it matches the time frame better), which is meant to add to the prose by showing the dense neighborhoods, many of which would later be demolished for the Empire State Plaza and other urban renewal projects (covered as major aspects of the next section). The other was the introductory photo to an H1 section called Cityscape, which has since been H2'ed. So the intent was for the photos to be relevant in the distinct sections they're in, not to be stacked to show a one-on-the-other difference in time. Based on that rationale, do you still see the need to stack them? They don't take up that much vertical space themselves. Unless there's a new WP: out there that requires this (which could very well be the case!). Matt Wade 21:31, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are three maps in the infobox. Is the fourth map in the geography section needed?
- I agree that the current map in the Geography section is redundant to the ones in the infobox. My original graphic was a topographic map to show the area's physical geography (right). I'd like to bring it back or see if someone can source an upgraded one. IIRC, I had reached out to the author of that image because they were known for their excellent cartographic submissions for articles. The date on the image upload to Commons is around when I was going full-in on this article, which makes my leaky brain feel more confident on the source. The down side was that the image is pixelated somewhat. A higher-quality replacement would be good. But either way, I think this image should go back because it adds to the prose that's there. Matt Wade 21:31, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the two photos in the "festivals" section. Neither shows much of the city, and are close-ups of people. I looked for a wider image of the pride parade online, but no luck. As for the Tulip Festival, may I suggest the image posted here replace it (there are several others on the Commons).
- Big picture: I can't remember when these photos were added, but it was after the GA/FA reviews of Sep 2010. My thoughts had always been that a festival isn't a festival without people and culture. And photos included in a GA/FA need to be as good if not better than the surrounding prose. That may not be a universal opinion, but it's something I took away from my Featured Pictures days. The detail, then, in my mind, meant that the human element was the priority. And no better photos show off humanity than candid, detailed shots of people doing things. I think our views on what's expected in these instances are different and you're looking for justification that these photos happened in Albany at all because they could be anywhere. I think that comes down to a difference in philosophy given the sometimes limited ability to get great photos for our articles? Like, I'd love a drone shot of an exciting parade float coming down Lark Street with identifiable buildings in the background, but still with the people on the float being prioritized in the shot. But I don't see anything like that online that could be used (to your point) and without quality composition, lighting, colors on a wide shot, the detailed human shot is my preference. Some other thoughts on each photo, below. Matt Wade 21:31, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Tulip Fest photo: I took the tulip fest photo and while I admit I wish there were more tulips in said photo, I was going for the candid photo of a person enjoying the sights of the festival. If you're strong on the concept of needing evidence we're in the place it says, I'd suggest this photo of the King Fountain (unique to Albany) or this photo showing the Agency building in the background (unique to Albany). The photo you suggested is, yes, a photo of lots of tulips, but the composition, color, and overall quality isn't that which I'd expect in a GA. I would oppose the use of that photo. Matt Wade 21:31, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Pride photo: Personally I think this is a great photo and shows the diversity of the population with candid views of individuals showing various emotions, surrounded by color and in front of a typical historic townhouse in Center Square. Generally you don't get this level of artistry on Wikis due to photos like this usually being taken by professionals or news media, who aren't willing to part with their copyright. (I didn't take this photo.) Matt Wade 21:31, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Other photos: In re-reading the article, the photo of the fireworks at the Plaza in the Nightlife and entertainment section is out of place. Not sure why I put it there originally. That's not really "nightlife", plus the event is referenced explicitly in the Festivals section. We could always move that there and replace one of the two photos mentioned above (then get something appropriate for the Nightlife section). Matt Wade 21:31, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In the education section, is this sentence necessary: "Although considered by the state to be one of the lowest-achieving high schools in New York, Albany High was listed as the nation's 976th best high school in a 2010 Newsweek/Washington Post report." Being 976th isn't really notable, and the data is 13 years old.
Would this photo be of any use?
- I don't see much use for this level of zoom on the Plaza buildings. The GA/FA review version of the article had this photo showing construction of the Plaza, which was a major historic event of the 20th century (a literal out-with-the-old-in-with-the-new turning point). I'm not sure why it was removed and I felt it's a very valuable addition since it was something from that time period yet available from the copyright perspective. We don't want to over-represent the Plaza, so when we do show it, we need to make sure it's relevant and important to the context, yes, but the article as a whole, as well. Matt Wade 21:39, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:45, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Magnolia, thanks for working on the article! I agree that the two skyline images would bettter be stacked, and the fourth map can be deleted. No opinion on festivals. That education sentence is not clear and outdated, so can be removed. The museums section already has a picture of a buildingin the same style, so the Flickr photo isn't needed really. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 07:32, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! As the main author back then and the GA nominator, I appreciate getting the heads up on the review. I'm going to take a read through and toss in some responses and other comments. You'll notice I don't edit much anymore (though I do use regularly), but I'm definitely interested in sprucing this up to keep the status. I'll be sure to respond to specific comments (especially if there is past context on the "why") and add my own. There are definitely some improvements I could see being applied already. Matt Wade 17:33, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments:

Proposed removal of 1793 fire paragraph: This paragraph in the British Occupation to 1800 section seems unnecessarily detailed. If the aim is to point out that slavery was in place in New York in the 1790s, I'm fine saying that a major fire impacted a portion of the city, with enslaved people being the suspects. Otherwise, I suggest its complete removal. On November 17, 1793, a large fire broke out, destroying 26 homes on Broadway, Maiden Lane, James Street, and State Street. The fire originated at a stable belonging to Leonard Gansevoort and was suspected to be arson set by enslaved people. Three were arrested and charged with arson: Pompey, a man enslaved by Matthew Visscher; Dinah, a 14-year-old girl enslaved by Volkert P. Douw; and Bet, a 12-year-old girl enslaved by Philip S. Van Rensselaer. On January 6, 1794, the three were tried and sentenced to death. For reasons unknown, Governor George Clinton issued a temporary stay of execution, but Dinah and Bet were executed by hanging on March 14, and Pompey on April 11, 1794.
Proposed removal of Lincoln funeral stop: I propose removing the sentence about and photo of Lincoln's casket visiting Albany following his assassination in the 1800-1942 section. Such a detail is not relevant to the general progression of culture and history in Albany and is more a piece of trivia. If anything, I think the photo has to go. That section talks a lot about banking and railroads, but has no photos of either. I could likely find a photo of one of those topics to expand upon the prose.
Thoughts on neighborhood section removal? The GA/FA review version of the article had a reasonably detailed (one can argue too detailed) section on neighborhoods of the city. The current Neighborhoods section is so bad that it might as well not exist. I feel this added a lot of value and insights into the culture of the city in a way that was not covered elsewhere. Would you all be agreeable to bringing back this section? There is a dedicated article on the topic, which further supports inclusion if the article is notable enough to exist.

Matt Wade 17:44, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @MattWade, Femke, and Magnolia677:, where does this stand? Do y'all think this meets the GA criteria? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:37, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
With this essentially stalled for a month, and nobody outright calling for a delist, I'd like to close this as a keep, but I see three citation needed tags and two tags indicating verification issues. If those aren't addressed soon, I'd be inclined to close as delist. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 14:21, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@GAR coordinators: for your attention please. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:07, 20 March 2023 (UTC) yes I know TAOT is here already [reply]
what TOAT said. If we can cite those bits I'll be happy enough to retain. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:13, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, at least we know the ping template works! Trainsandotherthings (talk) 17:13, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.