Talk:Picton, New Zealand

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Picton, New Zealand article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

New Zealand Mid‑importance

	New Zealand portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject New Zealand, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of New Zealand and New Zealand-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New ZealandWikipedia:WikiProject New ZealandTemplate:WikiProject New ZealandNew Zealand articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Untitled

I added the "New Zealand" because there's a Picton in Prince Edward County, Quinte's Isle, Ontario. Someone can do the "dab"! Robin Patterson 01:26, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The Hero - Sir Thomas Picton (a more balanced view beyond a positive spin for a new colony)

I have added the line "His connection to the slave trade and controversial governorship of Trinidad has resulted in calls for places named after him to be renamed." to reflect a more balanced view of this man and his deeds. The.Wiki.Enthusiast (talk) 10:25, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Picton was named after Sir Thomas Picton (read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Picton). The New Zealand town was named after Picton because he was the most senior person to die at the battle of Waterloo in 1815. Hero in this instance may simply mean the most posh person to die in a big battle.The.Wiki.Enthusiast (talk) 10:25, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Before Waterloo, Sir Picton was (in)famous for his treatment of slaves and non-whites during his governorship (1797–1803) of the slave colony of Trinidad (read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Trinidad_and_Tobago). As noted above, Picton was dragged back to the UK at the time to face trial for this mistreatment - but was acquitted on a technicality that Trinidad was not really under UK law at the time and therefore .. Picton could treat the non-whites as badly as he wanted. The fact that Picton was tried for cruelty to non-whites in a slave colony in a time when slavery and racism was part of the current climate may speak volumes about the type of man Picton was. The.Wiki.Enthusiast (talk) 10:25, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot seem to find the exact reason why New Zealand towns were being named after war heroes from wars many a year previously - but it must have been deemed important. Right? The Duke of Wellington and Lord Nelson (also Napoleonic war heroes) got New Zealand towns named Nelson and Wellington after them. Also the Duke of Marlborough's win at the Battle of Blenheim in the War of the Spanish Succession (read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blenheim)got the region Marlborough and town Blenheim named after that episode. Though this last one is 100 years previous to the Napoleonic wars, there does seem a need to display and remind everyone? of the colonial might of England, and wars or time frames were more or less irrelevant. Colonial positive spin and the Crown as the Conquerors might have been the game. Blenheim was originally called Beaver Town by the colonials. What was wrong with that? The.Wiki.Enthusiast (talk) 10:25, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Our Heros are Racists & Slavers - Do we need to point this out? Or is it just a 'fad'.

It was been suggested on two occasions on the history of this page that bringing a balanced perspective about Sir Picton's life as Picton also being an inhuman slaver and racist not just a soldier who died at the battle of Waterloo (read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Thomas_Picton) is a media "fad" " .... Roger 8 Roger talk contribs‎ 12,352 bytes +35‎ This is not really about the town's history, so I have moved it. Not sure if it warrants much more attention. It could be seen as a recent and short-term short term news fad..." and " Andrewgprout talk contribs‎ 11,215 bytes -187‎ Reverted 1 edit by The.Wiki.Enthusiast (talk): I would wait to see if this has any long term significance - this is far from clear at the moment..."

I see the UN declaration of Human rights 1964 clearly challenges these - this human rights thing is all a fad point of view (read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_human_rights). Specifically ... Article 1. All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood. Article 4. No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

I view these points of view suggesting human rights is a fad - are subversive and sinister in nature.The.Wiki.Enthusiast (talk) 10:52, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This simply is not the correct page for this detail. This is dealt with properly on the Thomas Picton page. As suggested earlier, wait to see if disquiet about Picton's past leads to more detail being appropriate, as far as I can see the media interest of a few months ago was as suspected was brief and insignificant as far as this article is concerned. .Andrewgprout (talk) 15:19, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A balanced perspective. Balanced detail. If details of Sir Picton's military history are notable (added to the Picton page in 2004 and unchanged)- why not his other deeds? What makes slavery, and racism not notable? In Pictons home county his behaviour as Governor of Trinidad is why this 'hero' status is now officially revoked - in Sir Pictons home county of wales Sir Picton's statue in the "Hall of Heroes" was described by the council as an 'affront to black people" and has now been removed, read: https://news.sky.com/story/statue-of-welsh-slave-trader-sir-thomas-picton-boarded-up-in-cardiff-12035408).

Fad Media Interest. What I THINK you mean to argue is that - Sir Pictons slavery and racsit behaviours are not important cuase they not in the media (for long and thus a fad issue). Is that correct? If it is ... arguing that a topic is not in the media is not an argument for exclusion or inclusion in Wikipedia. If it was a small seaside town at the top of the south island of New Zealand - wouldn't even have a Wikipedia page. Slavery and Racism are a major issue (see Human Rights refs above) Please present a better-framed argument. Let's discuss and get this balance right. The.Wiki.Enthusiast (talk) 21:21, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't necessary to go into detail about the life of Thomas Picton in this article. The detail belongs in the article on him. It's appropriate to mention the controversy that the town name implicitly honours a person connected to the slave trade, and this is done adequately. If an active campaign develops to rename the town, we should cover that, but at present such a campaign doesn't appear to have continued since June.-gadfium 23:11, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I do not intend wasting too much time on this. You obviously don't get it and I don't think anything said here will convince you otherwise. The best I can suggest is that you devote many hours on wikipedia, without editing, to see how it works and then you might hopefully also gain a modicum of understanding about basic academic principals than underlie wiki articles. Once again, this article is about the town, not Sir Thomas (not Sir Picton). Here is a couple of wiki principles to get you started. Attack the argument, not the editor, and keep it civil; when your edit is reversed with reasons given, you take to talk and get consensus before putting it back. Do not edit war. And whatever you do, do not assume that someone is wrong just because you do not understand their reasoning or the understand subject in question. In this case you are doing both. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 23:31, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]