Talk:Judge Holden

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Untitled

Judge Holden can be portraited as a wise but evil person.

The statement above is nonsensical. There is some argument as to whether the Judge Holden portrayed in 'Blood Meridian' is actually a person at all, rather than a 'brujo' or diablero. And what does 'portraited' mean? Centrepull 09:56, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Don't be deliberately dense. You know what he meant. 68.166.68.26 (talk) 22:25, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

He's definitely smart, but is he "evil"? Or just an act of nature. Like a tornado or a thunderstorm.

brujo

what is a brujo? there was a link that open a rides of the purple sage album. i've removed that link. there is no other entry, stub or otherwise, for brujo currently on wikiChildhoodtrauma 13:38, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Brujo is Spanish, the masculine form of bruja (witch). So, a wizard or magician, but the term connotes black magic. Hashashin 20:28, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Appellation

There should be included in the article an interpretation of who or what Judge Holden himslef presides over, i.e. what is he a Judge of? The Expriest in the novel fails to reveal this to the Kid when this particular question is presented to him by the latter. ArdClose 18:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The kid does encounter an answer to this question while dreaming/hallucinating after the arrow was removed from his leg, near the end of chapter XXI:

"The fool was no longer there but another man and this other man he could never see in his entirety but he seemed an artisan and a worker in metal. The judge enshadowed him where he crouched at his trade but he was a coldforger who worked with hammer and die, perhaps under some indictment and an exile from men's fires, hammering out like his own conjectural destiny all through the night of his becoming some coinage for a dawn that would not be. It is this false moneyer with his gravers and burins who seeks favor with the judge and he is at contriving from cold slag brute in the crucible a face that will pass, an image that will render this residual specie current in the markets where men barter. Of this is the judge judge and the night does not end."

--Raphite (talk) 07:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I take that to mean he's a judge of men's fate, but a corrupt one because he's also a tempter, or at least he's got a side-line in creating that which tempts men. So he's like an evil god, or demon, or Satan if you wish. But he's also a one-man Federal Reserve. I think that passage backs up the gnostic interpretation pretty well. 76.105.254.23 (talk) 18:07, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Harold Bloom has evidently concluded he was not a judge of any real official capacity, since Bloom refers to Judge Holden as "the self-styled judge" (Bloom's introduction to Blood Meridian, Modern Library edition, 2001, p. vii) --Kiyoweap (talk) 16:09, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Missing Sections and Expansion

This article is undersourced and is missing a great deal of information on the character (including an infobox) including the character's appearances in other media (which includes an action figure of the character), interpretation of the character which could be added to the scholarly debate on the character which also needs to be expanded. Also there needs to be information of the character's reception by literary critics and such because of the character's significance. All of these things need to be addressed and added to the article.--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:34, 4 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There also needs to be information on the development of the the character and his personality.--Paleface Jack (talk) 22:44, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Expansion Project

Because of this article's poor development I have created a draft for use in revising and expanding this article. However, I need help expanding it so if anyone is willing to help me just let me know. Here's the link to the draft: Draft:Judge Holden (revision)--Paleface Jack (talk) 18:42, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Changed the separate work space for use in expanding this article into a userspace draft. Here it is: User:Paleface Jack/Judge Holden (Revision)--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:56, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Bloom

...even came to regard The Judge as immortal...

That's an odd way to put it. Bloom is merely pointing out that he read the book, the judge making that claim himself. — LlywelynII 15:53, 28 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Gnostic Tragedy

Why is this here? It is a citation about an interpretation of the character and comes off as disjointed in the article. I feel like its removal would make the article more concise and thus more effective in informing about Judge Holden as a character. 72.241.167.200 (talk) 00:53, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I added some categories to the Judge page, I couldn't say everything in the reasoning why section, so i'll do it here.

1. Fictional philosophers - Several times throughout Blood Meridian (BM), The Judge tells the glanton gang about his philosophy of war. 2. Fictional musicians - The Judge is an incredible musician, And is a master of the fiddle. 3. Fictional dancers - The Judge is an amazing dancer. 4. Fictional crime bosses - Despite being second in command, The Judge is the true leader of the glanton gang. 5. Fictional mass murderers - The judge is shown to murder large amounts of people. It's also stated that he killed a group of Apaches after making a false surrender. 6. Fictional genocide perpetrators - The Judge, As well as the rest of the glanton gang murder several tribes of native americans initally for money, But later do so just because. 7. Fictional slave owners - The Judge makes the idiot into his pet, he walks him around on a leash and makes him carry his weapons. 8. Fictional war criminals - The Judge is a war criminal. 9. Male villains - The judge is the main antagonist of BM. Even though he is already listed in "Male Literary Villains", Several characters are listed in both "Male Literary Villains" and "Male Villains". 10. Fictional judges - Despite not really being a "Judge" I think it's still necessary to add him to that category. As he is always referred to as "The Judge". MrCboY1997 (talk) 17:23, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I added some categories to the Judge page, I couldn't say everything in the reasoning why section, so i'll do it here. (Part 2).

11. Fictional Western (genre) gunfighters: The Judge is an incredible marksman. 12. Fictional characters with superhuman strength: The Judge is incredibly strong, He can easily lift a Howitzer with one arm. And can also lift large rocks. He can also lift people. MrCboY1997 (talk) 17:30, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Chamberlain vs. McCarthy

Currently, there is a section in the top section that says

he is described as "a massive, hairless, albino man who excels in shooting, languages, horsemanship, dancing, music, drawing, diplomacy, science and anything else he seems to put his mind to. Despite his almost infinite knowledge, in which he can use to achieve anything he desires, Holden favours a life of murder and hate... He is also the chief proponent and philosopher of the Glanton gang’s lawless warfare."[4] Judge Holden has been described as "perhaps the most haunting character in all of American literature".[5]

I am dissatisfied with this, as it has some ambiguity in how he is described, and someone may read it as a quote from the book until they check the source (a previous edit attempted to fix this but did it poorly as well as adding a grammatical error so I reverted the change.) Ideally, this paragraph will note how the Judge was popularized by Blood Meridian, and briefly note, perhaps, similarities and differences from Chamberlain's account. The reason it should be brief is because it is elaborated upon at length below. How about we borrow from his description from the Blood Meridian article with something like:

He was popularized as the main antagonist of Cormac McCarthy's novel Blood Meridian (1985), where he is described as a huge, pale, and hairless man, extremely well educated and skilled, but also violent and ruthless. McCarthy's Judge Holden appears mythical and devilish, and has been described as "perhaps the most haunting character in all of American literature".[4]

Would it be best to add a reference for this description from the book? Or perhaps reuse the article from the original description? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Esobrev (talk • contribs) 23:19, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]