Talk:Altered scale

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Jazz scale

I've always seen this referred to simply as "the jazz scale" (though, admittedly, it's not the only scale I've seen referred to as "the" jazz scale). -- Jim Regan 00:40, 7 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

See jazz scale. Hyacinth 07:22, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Enharmonic

In the last example you need to start and finish with B# and not C...

Please sign your posts on talk pages per Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth 07:22, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(This topic is about the illustration of raising the root of a B major scale.) Agreed. Can somebody with that software fix the illustration and accompanying text?199.189.86.27 (talk) 01:54, 12 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Super Locrian? Entire article sounds like misinformation.

"Another way to look at the altered scale is that it is identical to the seventh musical mode of the ascending melodic minor scale, a mode which is sometimes referred to as Super Locrian."

What is described at the beginning of this article is a normal locrian mode. The first example is of a properly spelled C locrian scale (whose key signature would be that of Db major.) The second example is just plain incorrect. Assuming the scale is based on B, it has no tonic, but rather a "natural II". Assuming it were based on B#, it would be slightly closer to an altered dominant in the sense of a super locrian or diminished-whole-tone scale... but has another wrong raised tonic instead of a flat and sharp II as the second two notes.

While the quoted statement regarding the construction of a super-locrian scale is enharmonically correct, in its normal use in jazz as an altered dominant, the scale would actually contain the root of the dominant (scale degree ^5) followed by a flat and sharp 9 (Db, D#) -- an example of a super locrian functioning as an altered dominant in the key of F. A flat third would have a different function, making the outlined chord minor with a flat 9, and bizzare diminished 4th, and diminished 5th. It might sometimes be spelled this way to be easier to read... but is otherwise theoretically incorrect.

I have never actually come across someone using the term "altered scale" in this manner in either jazz or classical analysis. From what I gather from the Alternate_chord article, this scale is supposed to be the foundation of a tritone sub, or some other chromatically descending substitute for a dominant in a ii-V-I. I don't understand from this article how thats possible unless this has some use in classical western repertoire, which I've never seen, as such usage would normally be considered either linear harmony, or non-functional, rather than a dominant substitution. Otherwise I must assume that this really only happens in this function in jazz/pop styles, in which it most frequently functions to outline an alternate dominant.

Ormaaj (talk) 17:49, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I guess normal locrian wouldn't have a F flat but rather a F natural. The example is correct in that it shows the seventh mode of the melodic minor scale. Furthermore, the term is widely in use in jazz theory books, for instance the very popular duo "jazz piano book" and the "jazz theory book" from Mark Levine (#1 on amazon.com for jazz theory, I believe).--Dkcycovery (talk) 05:31, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Ormaaj. This article is largely misinformation, and the problem is related to enharmonic spellings. Just because Fb and E are enharmonically identical doesn't mean you can use Fb to notate E, especially in a theoretical context like this one. In the practice of notation of instrumental parts, it is common to use whatever accidentals make it easier for the players to be able to sight read, but this is not that scenario; E must be notated as E here. "Altered scale" is short for "Altered Dominant scale". It's called an Altered Dominant scale because it's a Dominant scale that includes the altered versions of all of the non-essential tones of a dominant chord. The essential tones for a dominant chord are the root, the major third, and the minor seventh. If you change any of those, it ceases to be a dominant chord. Those must be there! In a C dominant chord, the essential tones are C, E, and Bb, not C, Fb, and Bb. Likewise, when you alter the nine of a C dominant chord by raising it, you get D#, not Eb. The proper pitch names for a C altered dominant scale are C, Db, D#, E, F#, G#, and Bb. An acceptable alternate spelling that substitutes the flat five for the sharp eleven and the flat thirteen for the sharp five is C, Db, D#, E, Gb, Ab, and Bb. 108.185.42.185 (talk) 05:15, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The altered scale doesn't have a diminished fourth; it has a major third, because it is derived from an altered dominant seventh chord. The first graphic has to be called something else. I'm changing the sentence before the first graphic. -- Another Stickler (talk) 11:22, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The term "super-locrian" scale was introduced by Jamey Aebersold, creator of jazz play-along recordings. My main comment, however, is that I find these two statements in the article very unclear, possibly red-herrings. I think it would be best to delete it from the article: "In contrast to the term acoustic scale, the term "altered scale" almost always refers to this particular mode of the melodic minor, rather than the scale itself. In this sense, the term "acoustic mode" would be more accurate." Rmkeller (talk) 04:34, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that mention of the "Super-Locrian scale" should be removed, but "red herring" implies that the misinformation is purposefully misleading. I think the misinformation is coming more from ignorance than maliciousness. By the way, the deriviation of the "Super" prefix is in taking one more step after the steps that got you through all the church modes from the Lydian to the Locrian scale (the steps of lowering the tones of a Lydian scale starting with the sharp eleventh and going up in fourths, so the seventh gets lowered next, then the third, etc.). "Super-Locrian" means one step more after Locrian. The true next step would lower the root, but that is skipped because that is an undefined operation in music theory, so the next step after that is called the "super-locrian" step and lowers the eleventh (which had already been lowered from the sharp eleven of Lydian to the natural eleven of the other church modes), this time to a diminished eleventh. The process can be continued. The next step after that gets the prefix, "Ultra" and lowers the minor seven to a diminished seventh, forming the "Ultra-Locrian" scale. Anyway, coming back to this article, the statement that an Altered Dominant scale is the same as a "Super-Locrian" scale ignores the distinction. The two scales are identical enharmonically, but they are not identical functionally, thus the need for separate names and separate spellings. A Super-Locrian scale goes with a minor seven, flat five chord (just like a Locrian scale does), not with a dominant chord. The functional identity of the pitches of a Super-Locrian scale as they map over a minor seven, flat five chord are therefore root, flat nine, minor third, diminished eleventh, flat five, flat thirteen, and flat seven. The chart of the C Super-Locrian scale in this article is correct when it spells it C, Db, Eb, Fb, Gb, Ab, Bb. The problem is, it doesn't belong in this article! This article is about the Altered Dominant scale not the Super-Locrian scale! A C Altered Dominant scale cannot be derived from the same process as the church modes. It doesn't follow the typical convention of including one of each letter name. It also does not follow the convention of building a tertial chord by skipping every other member of the scale. You have to skip over two scale members in an Altered Dominant scale to get from the root to the third of the dominant chord because there are two ninths, which means a C Altered Dominant scale has two D's, spelled Db and D# (not Eb). A C Altered Dominant scale also has an E, not an Fb. 108.185.42.185 (talk) 05:15, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Notable jazz great and music teacher Gary Burton explains altered notes and the Altered scale starting at 8:15 in this video of a class on jazz improvisation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2txO_u2eNg He says, "so you make up a scale that uses all the possible altered notes and you get this: one, flat nine, sharp nine, three, sharp eleven, flat thirteen, and then the seven." Notice he doesn't say minor third and diminished eleven? An Altered scale is not a Super Locrian scale, even if they are enharmonically identical! 2606:6000:FFC0:7:584E:986E:8D16:FF7E (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:12, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Another way to make an altered scale

There is another way to make an altered scale. All the notes except the tonic of the major scale are flattened. 47.20.0.160 (talk) 19:56, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's a mode of melodic minor!

Apparently it's the seventh mode of melodic minor. Melodic Minor on C is C D E-flat F G A B C, and altered on B is B C D E-Flat F G A B.