Talk:Seal of the president of the United States

Use of the seal in fiction?

Some information on the legal status of the seal appearing on-screen in movies and TV shows featuring fictional portrayals of the US president would be welcome. For example, The West Wing appeared to use the authentic seal on screen, while 24 used a fictional presidential seal so different from the real one it seemed like avoidance. SNL has used the seal before fake presidential speech skits. Does permission have to be obtained for fictional portrayals or parody impersonations? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.220.22.21 (talk) 16:05, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

From http://www.westwing.com/prse.html

While use of the official seal is regulated by the White House Graphics and Calligraphy Office, variations of the Seal are heavily used in popular culture. One example is the use of a variation of the seal as a logo. The rock bands Blink-182 and The Ramones both use logos that are similar to the Seal. The mega-hit television show The West Wing used an altered Presidential Seal as part of its opening sequence.

And: The use of the Seal of the President of the United States continues to be regulated so that it will not lose the respect and admiration that is deserves. ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 (talk) 19:24, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Legality of Selling items with seal

Could someone provide a reference to the statement about it being illegal to sell items with the seal on it? I'm just curious. Mattlary 18:41, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

It is part of U.S. law; 18 U.S.C § 713. Carl Lindberg (talk) 18:53, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

However, "...there is one exception. The U.S. Secret Service is allowed to use the Seal on items being sold to benefit their charitable fund." ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 (talk) 19:38, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Question regarding The Presidential Seal: I have a section of an envelope with the Presidential Seal. I believe it was my late Uncle's but I don't know why he would have received a White House Document. He was in the Army, received a Purple Heart and other prestigious awards. Does anybody know how I could find out what he received from the White House? My Aunt did not keep the entire envelope, only the seal.

Thank you Jo-Anne Warner23:28, 18 June 2007 (UTC)67.72.98.91 23:28, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Changing direction?

The article currently states: "Many people the arrows in its left talon." Certainly; an episode of The West Wing, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs makes reference to the myth of the head turning. either it was intentional on the part of the wirters, or someone never told the writers the story is a myth

The presidential seal once did have the eagle's head facing to the left, at least between 1877 and 1945, see here. Also, it is possible that an early presidential seal was made which, while the eagle still faced its right, the arrows and olive branch switched legs. See here. Carl Lindberg (talk) 18:53, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

US Navy SEALs?

The world "seal" reminds me the United States Navy SEALs. Is there any connection between this two words? No, the SEALS you speak of ar an unrelated acronym.CApitol3 12:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Jonathan, 07/23/2007

Need for Symbolism Discussion

This article needs a section on the symbolism of the seal. For example, what are those several orbs above the eagle's head, and what do they stand for? And so on. --Skb8721 17:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

They are cloud puffs, I guess somewhat taken from the Great Seal. The current seal is defined by Executive Order 10823, which superseded earlier versions. See also here. Carl Lindberg (talk) 18:53, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Article states that thirteen stars are above the banner, but actually there are 9 above and 4 below.209.247.23.40 (talk) 20:15, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

You're right about the stars (good catch). Interesting, since it not likely to be arbitrary; certainly they could have made it look tidier by putting all 13 above the banner, as it is the 4 below look out of place. I'm sure the tin-foil hat crowd have an explanation. I can't find a reference, but I know the answer (original research) -- 9 stars above, 4 below; subtract 4 from 9 = 5; 5-sided star = pentagram = devil worship; therefore all presidents are sworn to worship the devil. Quod Erat Demonstrandum ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 (talk) 21:34, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Actually the placement is completely arbitrary. The mistaken wording referred to in the earlier post was fixed years ago. Carl Lindberg (talk) 20:17, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Redirect

Can we have "US Presidential Seal" redirect to this article? Seem reasonable enough! 92.9.92.72 (talk) 13:57, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Misconception and Uses

When it talks about where the misconceptions came from on the eagle facing the arrows in time of war, and this is where I actually had the belief from, there was a special, pretty sure it was The History Channel, slim chance it was PBS, but I believe it was called The White House: Behind Closed Doors. It had those twins with blonde hair, guys, I think they do something with antiques on another show, but Laura Bush brought them into the Oval Office and pretty much said that they wanted to have the Eagle facing the olive branch instead of the arrows, so that might be another addition to this section.

And for uses of the Presidential Seal, I read something somewhere else that the Hall Of Presidents at Disney World actually had to get an act of congress to approve installation of the seal on this ride/exhibit. Might be worth adding if sourced.Zdawg1029 (talk) 20:08, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I doubt it took an actual act of Congress -- that would be an easy reference to provide and look up, and would be of interest if that existed. If it was just permission from the White House, that's a lot more common. Carl Lindberg (talk) 03:56, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

You know what I think you're right. Cancel thenZdawg1029 (talk) 12:10, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Trump's "Seal"

Since someone felt the need to claim Donald Trump was using his own version of the presidential seal, while also implying that Trump may be breaking the law, perhaps for the sake of balance it should be mentioned that Barack Obama had his own faux-seal back in 2008. And unlike Trump's "seal", Obama's was actually reported on by outlets such CNN and the NY Times. I would like to add that the Daily Caller does not constitute multiple "conservative news organizations".

The fake seal, which features "45 is a puppet" and a bald eagle holding golf clubs, appeared behind Trump Tuesday when he took the stage at the Teen Student Action Summit hosted by the conservative group Turning Point USA. People started to wear Fake Presidential Seal T-Shirts.

References

The stars surrounding e pluribus unum

I noticed there are 13 stars surrounding the E Pluribus Unum banner in the center. Does the fact nine are above the ribbon and four below represent the original 13 states with the four that seceded: Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia being the lower four? Eric Cable  !  Talk  22:03, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 18 May 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved except Seal of the President of Ukraine, which was withdrawn. Arguments made in favour of MOS:CAPS and MOS:JOBTITLES were not contested to a convincing degree. (non-admin closure) Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 20:00, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

---

• Seal of the President of the United States → Seal of the president of the United States
• Seal of the Vice President of the United States → Seal of the vice president of the United States
• Seal of the President of Ukraine → Seal of the president of Ukraine
• Seal of the President of Ireland → Seal of the president of Ireland
• Seal of the President of Nigeria → Seal of the president of Nigeria
• Seal of the President of the Philippines → Seal of the president of the Philippines
• Seal of the Vice President of the Philippines → Seal of the vice president of the Philippines

– MOS:JOBTITLES indicates that "president" and "vice president" should be lowercase in these instances. WikiEditor50 (talk) 13:29, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. The Seal of the President of Ukraine is a unique and specific significant object, and its name is a proper name to be capitalized as such. It is one of the state symbols of the president of Ukraine, a specific object and not a graphical symbol like the flag or the tryzub.

Other similar examples include the Crown of Rus, the Crystal Sceptre of the mayor of London, the Mace of the United States House of Representatives (Mace of the Republic), and the Great Seal of Canada. More broadly, examples of specific significant objects whose names are capitalized include the Mariinskyi Palace, the Peresopnytsia Gospel, the Crown of Rus, and the Hope Diamond. —Michael Z. 16:45, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

You may have a point regarding the Ukrainian seal... I'm withdrawing my proposal for that. WikiEditor50 (talk) 09:27, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't rely on an unreferenced article to conclude that something is a proper name, even if it's a specfic object (which the article doesn't even claim – "the new seal" is a specific one, but suggests there's at least one more). Dicklyon (talk) 21:41, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Okay. So that’s something to confirm or deny before nominating that article for a move.  —Michael Z. 21:52, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. These are proper nouns, names of specific objects, not descriptive phrases. They are not job titles. If we were moving these articles to descriptive phrases, they should be more like "Seal of the American president" or "Presidential seal (Ukraine)". Station1 (talk) 20:48, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
• Comment: This is a tough one. Is it one particular object or is it an emblem/logo that is printed on lots of things? I notice that all of the "Great Seal of X" articles use "Seal" rather than "seal". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:40, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support since book stats make it very clear that this is not being treated as a proper name, even though "President" is capped more often than not (that's where JOBTITLE applies). Dicklyon (talk) 16:56, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

  A search without “the” and with a country name might be more appropriate. To which subjects is this result intended to apply? First page of G Books results has 8 results for USA, one for “Seal of the President Directors & Company of the Essex Bank,” and one for the “Pennsylvania Population Company.”  —Michael Z. 18:35, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

  The "the" is useful to make stats that are more likely to be from sentence context. Unfortunately, the n-gram tool only goes up to n = 5, so we can't find stats on the whole thing. Not many books actually talk about this whole phrase it seems. When the do, sometimes with lowercase "seal", they typical do cap "President", as here, because that's their style (but not ours). They also call it "The President's Seal", which we would also not capitalize. Basically, the evidence shows that these are often treated as descriptive phrases; there's no evidence that they are widely treated as proper nouns. Dicklyon (talk) 21:34, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - On the US presidential seal, it's capitalised as "SEAL of the PRESIDENT of the UNITED STATES". Also "VICE PRESIDENT of the UNITED STATES". GoodDay (talk) 00:23, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

  Actually the seal itself has "SEAL of the PRESIDENT of the UNITED STATES", but obviously we wouldn't do either one of those. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 01:22, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

  And this book about the seal's history uses lowercase "seal"; clearly part of a descriptive phrase, not a proper name. Dicklyon (talk) 03:26, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

  That’s not even true. The book uses a mix, but seems to use lc when referring to various great seals, but capital initials for Great Seal and Great Seal of the United States in many, many instances.  —Michael Z. 03:58, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, they cap "Great Seal", but not "seal of the President...", lowercase seal in the phrases we're discussing. Dicklyon (talk) 05:04, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

  Well that’s true. Of this single source. So what does it mean?  —Michael Z. 05:45, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

  It's just one authoritative source on the history of the subject, true. Here's another good one. In concert with others, and the suggestive book stats, these support the claim that sources don't consistently capitalize "seal" or treat it as part of a proper name. And therefore "President" in this context is also not part of a proper name. Some sources that cap "Seal" in this phrase (e.g. this executive order) also cap "The Color and Flag of the President of the United States" and "The Coat of Arms, Seal, and Color and Flag shall..."; I don't think that capitalization style is reserved for proper names. Dicklyon (talk) 16:44, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

  Curious.... What does a design element have to do with how something should be capitalized? If a sign uses all caps, should the text be repeated in all caps in a non-sign context? WikiEditor50 (talk) 17:51, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support per MOS:JOBTITLES, and just MOS:CAPS in general. Avoid capital letters where sources, independent of the subject, don't consistently use them.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:21, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support. This is a no-brainer, per MOS:CAPS and MOS:JOBTITLES. I don't want readers' eyes poked out by rafts of unnecessary capitals in our articles. Tony (talk) 01:10, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.