Talk:Teochew Min

POJ

Where does the POJ spelling “Tiê-chiu-uē” come from? Shouldn’t it be “Tiâu-tsiu-uē”? (I think the final -ie does not even exist in POJ.) — Babel fish (talk) 12:49, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't speak Hokkien so I wouldn't know about the Tiê to Tiâu, but I do know that it should be chiu not tsiu because POJ doesn't have the initial 'ch' (Tai-lo uses 'ts' though}. 三葉草SanYeCao · Talk 00:28, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

@Babel fish it comes from Pe̍h-ūe-jī (PUJ) for Teochew. POJ (Pe̍h-ōe-jī) is for Hokkien though, but Teochew PUJ is Teochew's version of POJ. Teochew have slightly different phonemes than Hokkien, like 潮 is PUJ: tiê (IPA: /tie⁵⁵/) in Teochew Proper dialect of Chaozhou city, but PUJ: tiô (IPA: /tio⁵⁵/) in Swatow dialect of Swatow City. In Hokkien, 潮 is POJ: tiô (IPA:/tio²⁴/ or /tio¹³/ or /tiɤ²³/) in vernacular pronunciation (白讀), but POJ: tiâu (IPA: /tiau²⁴/ or /tiau¹³/ or /tiau²³/) in literary reading (文讀). For those who do not know what the IPA numbers mean, numbers follow Chao tone numbers, meaning there are 5 levels on a graph, 1 is lowest pitch tone, 5 is highest pitch tone, first number designates which position tone starts from 1 to 5, then second number designates where it ends on an imagined pitch tone graph. Mlgc1998 (talk) 15:24, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Proposed merger of Chaoshan Min and Teochew dialect

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to merge Chaoshan Min with Teochew dialect and to move Teochew dialect to Teochew Min. QuestionableAnswers (talk) 16:37, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

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I propose to merge Chaoshan Min and Teochew dialect into a single article titled "Teochew Min" (or equivalently).

The term "Teochew" refers not to the modern Chaozhou city (潮州市), but instead to the historical Chaozhou prefecture (潮州府), which covered the entire region known today as Chaoshan. This is why, for instance, there is the Teochew Poit Ip Huay Kuan (潮州八邑會館) clan association in Singapore, which literary means "eight counties of the Teochew [prefecture]", now divided between Chaozhou, Shantou and Jieyang prefecture-level cities.

The note in Teochew dialect saying that "Teochew and Chaoshan are two different things" is misleading. They are the same thing in this context, and "Teochew" is the more common name for the entire language spoken in Chaozhou, Shantou and Jieyang. I doubt there is even a need for a separate article on the Chaozhou dialect of Teochew/Chaoshan, since there are multiple dialects spoken in Chaozhou city and the linguistic borders generally do not follow the administrative borders. QuestionableAnswers (talk) 23:25, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Pinging Kwamikagami, who created Chaoshan Min as a split from Teochew dialect in 2019. --Paul_012 (talk) 07:07, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, we had an article on the local dialect and no article on the language, so I created one. If we want to merge them into an article on the language, that would be fine, even if it's heavy on Teochew dialect, but in such an article the language would need to come first. — kwami (talk) 09:06, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami:, sure, the language should be the primary topic here. As the note in Teochew dialect says, it is already "confused between Teochew/Chaozhou and Chaoshan/Teo-Swa", and I'd like to expand it more to cover not only the Chaozhou dialect. Still, the article on the language should be titled "Teochew Min" or "Teochew language", as "Teochew" is the most common name for it in English.--QuestionableAnswers (talk) 01:48, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I have no objection to that. We could list Teochew dialect within the Teochew language. But if we make the name ambiguous like that, we're going to have to be careful to make it clear which we mean when. — kwami (talk) 04:02, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Alright. We can use "Teochew proper" or "Chaozhou dialect" when referring specifically to the dialect of the Chaozhou city. But if we need more accuracy, it may be better to use even smaller divisions — as I said above, the linguistic borders do not coincide with the administrative ones (e.g. the dialect spoken in Chaozhou's Raoping County is closer to the Swatow dialect, and the dialect of Shantou's Chenghai District is closer to the Teochew proper). --QuestionableAnswers (talk) 07:23, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Names of languages don't correspond to administrative borders. French isn't spoken only in France, and not everything spoken in France is French. There's no reason we can't do the same with Chinese. I don't understand this idea that there are human beings who speak languages, and then there's this other species of Chinese beings who speak dialects. So "Chaozhou dialect" is the dialect named after Chaozhou. It doesn't matter that it's also spoken outside Chaozhou and that not everything inside Chaozhou is Chaozhou dialect -- it's just a label for the thing, which being linguistic is defined linguistically. — kwami (talk) 07:49, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I understand you and I am not against the term "Chaozhou dialect". Anyway, "Teochew" primarily refers to the entire language, and when we need to mention the Chaozhou city dialect, we can use more specific terms.

So if there is no objections, I think the Teochew dialect article should be moved to "Teochew Min", and Chaoshan Min should be redirected there (just like it is done in zh.wikipedia). --QuestionableAnswers (talk) 06:13, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

• Use common names too. The language is not known by Min outside linguistics and academic contexts. 59.152.195.28 (talk) 08:07, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Teochew is currently a disambiguation page. There were requests in 2016 and 2017 to move this page to "Teochew", but it was argued that "Teochew" is used not only for the language, but also for the people and the place. So we need a title with a specifier, like "Teochew Min". "Teochew Chinese" may work too, but again it may be interpreted as referring to the Teochew people. --QuestionableAnswers (talk) 14:30, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

The fact that "X Chinese" is ambiguous is not an issue. Our standing convention is "X Chinese" or "X Min" for the major branches/sub-families, "X Y" (where Y is one of the major branches) for subdivisions of / languages in those, and "X dialect" for what are actually dialects (mutually intelligible with other dialects). — kwami (talk) 17:51, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Good. So I believe "Teochew Min" is consistent with the conventions, even though, as 59.152.195.28 said, it is not the common name for the language (which would be just "Teochew"). --QuestionableAnswers (talk) 23:56, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it's a dab based on Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Chinese)#Languages_or_dialects. — kwami (talk) 00:28, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

• Alright, so since two months have passed already and there were no objections to the merge, I am going to perform it. If someone has noticed this discussion only now and is against the merge, please start a new discussion. --QuestionableAnswers (talk) 16:37, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Swatow dialect is not Teochew dialect

Swatow dialect is not Teochew dialect, it is different language and accents.

Teochew dialect and Swatow dialect are a dialect of a branch called Chaoshan combination of (Chaozhou from Teochew) and {Shantou from Swatow) hence it is called Teo-swa language in mandarin it is called Chaoshan, it is very selfish to call Swatow dialect as Teochew dialect.

Like calling Portuguese language and Spanish language alike, when they are not the same, differ usage of grammar and words 2406:3003:2001:54A3:F9E6:B188:F6FC:3018 (talk) 14:50, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

潮州府 (in red)

Please read the merge discussion above. The word "Teochew" in Teochew people and Teochew Min refers not to the modern Teochew/Chaozhou prefecture-level city in PRC, but to the historical Teochew/Chaozhou prefecture (see the map). This prefecture included both modern Chaozhou and Shantou cities, among others. Of course, now this region is known as Teo-Swa/Chaoshan in China, but in English, "Teochew" is the established name for the entire language spoken in this region. --QuestionableAnswers (talk) 15:02, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Supporting merger (in favor of "Teochew language")

Supporting the merger, after the fact. The language that younger People's Republicans call 潮汕话 is simply called "Teochew" in English most of the time. "Teochew" refers to the entire language, not a subset of it. Any person that doesn't understand this — or pretends not to understand — has no business editing English Wikipedia.

Based on ample precedent, it makes much more sense to entitle the article "Teochew language", though. 釆 (talk) 09:55, 27 June 2024 (UTC)